Knocking on the Door of
Anguk Zen Center
an interview with SooBool Sunim, the pioneer in
the popularizing of GanhwaSeon

veryday about 3,000 members of Anguk Zen Center practice Zen in the Seoul and the Busan centers. Members can choose any of the available sessions which are held three times a day: dawn, morning and afternoon. Most members especially participate in the winter and summer retreats.
   Halim Sunim and the editor of CLEARMIND interviewed SooBool Sunim, who is the head monk of Anguk Zen Center.
   He is a leader in the popularization of Zen practice.

Editor (Hereafter E)
   Hello, Sunim.
   Recently a daily newspaper showed a photo of a lot of people practicing meditation during retreat time at Anguk Zen Center. As I understand, you have chosen to teach Zen to lay Buddhists. Why have you picked Ganhwa Seon instead of the many others that are available?

SooBool Sunim (Hereafter S)
   It is the traditional Korean Jogye Order's practice and I think it really suits the atmosphere and culture of Korea. In Southern Buddhist countries, they do Vipassana which fits them. In terms of climate conditions in Northern Buddhism, there are two ways of Zen practice, one is Ganhwa Seon and the other is Mukjo Seon (Silent-contemplation). Of the two, the more suitable for us is Ganhwa Seon; it fits into our life well.
   Northern Buddhist countries have to practice in the cold winter season, and so we need our own method. That is Ganhwa Seon, which is very quick and effective. I admire our ancestors who so wisely chose it and taught it in Korea.

Halim Sunim (Hereafter H)
   If Zen practice is just considered for monastics and the practice is found in certain meditation halls, then the lay Buddhists feel discriminated against. Actually it has usually been this way ? until now. However, after you have worked hard over many years, Ganhwa Seon has been successfully popularized for the first time. In general, it is regarded as a difficult method, and even after practicing hard, most people do not know the truth of this method. Therefore, chanting and kido (religious practice) usually accompany the Zen practice. Would you tell me your point of view as to the use of combining these two practices? And in your case, how do you deal with it?

Very good question. It is surely not easy for lay Buddhists to practice Zen from the beginning. How to start Zen practice is totally up to each person’s level of understanding Buddhism. Depending on his or her level, everybody should begin from the very basics.
   I let them think, “Why do I practice Zen?” or “What is Zen?” And my role is just to motivate them to have an environment good enough to practice in.
   After practicing for some time, whoever may want to feel sense-objects (note: Sunim means the various experiences that one has in meditation), then I guide them.
   Theoretically, everybody now knows that Ganhwa Seon is very good. But practitioners do not understand why it is good and how to do it properly. Therefore they are tempted to practice Vipassana or other styles of meditation. Though practitioners concentrate on their hwa-du, such as “what is this?” it is not an active one. I am not telling them not to concentrate on the hwa-du “what is this?” but telling them to do it with clear understanding. Without having the correct idea about it, practitioners simply concentrate on the hwa-du. Therefore, they are not aware of sense-objects and they don’t know how to solve out the question. Therefore, a teacher should guide practitioners. While they are concentrating on hwa-du, there is a beginning but no middle and so they, making a lot of efforts, cannot expect good results, because they don't have any clear guidelines. Therefore, people have come to believe that practicing Zen is very difficult. Besides, after practicing in this way for some time, people tend to lose their way and so misunderstand the true meaning. It is up to monks or nuns who have experience of teaching people now.

   In the past, ordinary people were not able to practice because of lack of information. But now, we are living in an information-oriented society; nevertheless, people are still unable to learn it because there is nobody who is willing to teach them. I'm often wondering why it is that people, anxious to learn Zen, don't have a teacher. Whose fault is it? Now, I have to point out the problem. In my case, if I stayed in a temple deep in the mountains or practiced under a spiritual leader, then I would be much better off than now. But I abandoned all, and started to teach people from the market place because I wanted to share the knowledge I had as much as I could. I want to let people know how the monks in ancient times practiced and how we should practice in modern society. In actual fact, I just started my teaching to help other people and not to show me off.

   Even though there are only a few monks and nuns who are aware of the present urgent situation and realize how people are craving to practice, that is enough.
   Not only should monastics be provoked and aware of lay Buddhists' suffering but, with great compassion, they also have to be with the people.

Monks and nuns who practice in meditation halls should be concerned with this problem and sort it out. Actually, some of them do not learn Zen step-by-step and are not really ready to practice, but they just start and continue to practice. Nowadays, there are meditation centers that teach basic Zen and try to work out the problem.
   When I lived in America, I noticed that there are various well-organized programs such as Avatar and Theravada Buddhism in order to avoid the same problems. The fact is that Korean Buddhism has not tried to systemize anything yet. I believe you have succeeded in teaching lay Buddhists very systematically so that they can experience and be fulfilled while they are practicing. Your methods are very unusual. What do you think is the difference between the methods of practice I noticed in America and Ganhwa Seon, our traditional method?

You have pinpointed the problem very clearly. As far as I know, those two programs you mentioned are well organized. After some time of practicing, meditators feel sense-objects. So they really get curious as to what will happen next. Also people who have been practicing for a while, talk about the next stage, and the next one. It means the whole procedure is connected so that it is easy to do. Those things never happened before at all. So they are simply regarded as the right ways to practice and people easily choose these methods. People may ask me if they are the right ones. And I answer them that they are and so I just accept them. From the Zen viewpoint, they are merely calming down their busy minds and so after some time of practicing this refining procedure, they finally reach a pure state which can be called enlightenment. This, however, is Hinayana Buddhism, The Zen practice is, so to speak, not a method of letting impurities sink to the bottom but a method of getting rid of all impurities. We should help people to remove even hardened impurities at the bottom by shaking them up off the bottom. For example, in case we make dirty water pure by letting impurities sink to the bottom, the water can become dirty again as soon as it is shaken. But if we remove all the impurities from the water, the water will be still pure however hard it may be shaken. The former is quite different from the latter, and the latter can be compared to Ganhwa Seon. In other words, there is very big difference between the Korean traditional Zen method and other methods.

   It is the duty of Korean Buddhism to guide meditators to choosing the Mahayana method of Zen practice and help them to do it. But Korean Buddhism is very inactive at the moment. Many say that Zen is the best in the world, but only sayings and books are not enough to persuade people to believe it. We should make people see  and feel in person how good it is. so then they should prove how good it is. Even though there are only a few monks and nuns who are aware of the present urgent situation and realize how people are craving to practice, that is enough. Not only should monastics be provoked and aware of lay Buddhists' suffering but, with great compassion, they also have to be with the people. Present-day Korean Buddhism stays quite far away from society and still keeps its old form. Without alternative guide lines through Seon or through academic books, Korean Buddhism won't be able to change, and it will just stay in the same old state it is in today. Besides, Korean Buddhism will face difficulties if it continues to just conduct Buddhist offering ceremonies, religious practice, and memorial ceremonies. All Buddhists have to know the real meaning of the Buddha's teaching and what is true Buddhist work. They need to understand why the Buddha taught us the way to enlightenment.
   Monastics should lead lay Buddhists to the right path so that they may understand Buddhism correctly. We should not only seek the logical understanding about what the true meaning of Ganhwa Seon is and how they can be changed after practicing Zen but also provide them a chance to get enlightened by practicing Zen in person, I think.

   As human being, we all have the instinct of wanting to go home, which is our mind. Therefore, if you concentrate on an active hwa-du, you will not be lazy in practice, not try other way of practice.

Could you tell us your teaching procedure briefly and simply?

In the case of monastic practitioners, their master gives them a hwa-du or they choose it by themselves. But in the case of lay Buddhists, especially those who have no interest in Zen at all, it is a different story. It is like a log in water and it is almost impossible to set it alight.
   I ask a simple and very basic question; What is the reason for and what is the aim you have in practicing a religion? I only give hwa-du to those who are curious after hearing my questions, then I guide them to the next step.
   People practice according to their karma and in this way they make new karma. After a while, people may become more aware of sense-objects and their new experiences are varying depending on their karma. Then they should not step back frightened of the new experiences but keep on concentrating on their hwa-du.
   The foundation of beginning to practice is desperation, the driving desire to practice and understand. Actually it is the most important element in starting to practice. From this base there arise the devotion and the courage to practice.
   Let me give you a simple demonstration of the effect of my question. I tell a person to hold a cup in one hand, and ask “Who holds the cup?” The answers are varying: the hand holds it, or I do it because you, Sunim, told me to, or I do, or my mind does, etc. Those answers are all the result of common sense. However when I ask again for an answer from a different point of view, then he/she simply does not answer. Then I answer the question myself, “Your hand does not hold the cup, nor is it done by yourself, nor by your mind. We, however, cannot say that nobody does it, either.” If he/she still doesn't understand it clearly, I ask one more time, “What is it that holds the cup?” and this leads him or her to a very uncomfortable situation. If your mind holds the cup, then why does your mind do it? Mind is not mind.
   After the Buddha attained enlightenment, he just put a name to it calling it ‘mind’ It can be called the Buddha Nature, Thathagata, and complete enlightenment. If you or your hand holds a cup, you or your hand should be able to hold the cup until the last moment when you go into your coffin. But what will happen in fact after you die? Again I ask directly “Who is carrying your dead body? Who makes you do this?” “If you know the question, then you should be able to answer it, but why can't you?” He/she gets more frustrated. At that moment, I just help people to become aware of their karmical connection.
   Once people get the meaning of holding a cup, I do not need to explain. But as long as they have no idea, I repeat my question.
   Once people start to doubt their ability to answer, they cannot stop focusing on that doubt. Eventually they get the answer to their doubt. While they penetrate this doubt, they do not need a Sunim's advice or the Buddha's teaching. Concentrating on the hwa-du is not simply focusing on it. If they just concentrate on their hwa-du, it is not a live one.
   As human beings, we all have the instinct of wanting to go home, which is our mind. Therefore, if you concentrate on an active hwa-du, you will not be lazy in practice, nor try other ways of practice.

Could you tell me since when you have been teaching Buddhism? Also what is your future plan?

After looking after Neung-ga Sunim(his Dharma borther is Gang-deock Sunim), my teacher? teacher for ten years, I opened a Buddhist center in 1989 in Busan. I had a very difficult time and I even came to regret opening the center at the beginning. After reflecting carefully on myself, I found that I had problems. These problems originated within me and were not due to others or to circumstances. At that time I was not concerned about people but just forced them to practice hwa-du. In actual fact I mainly started teaching in 1993 in Busan and in 1996 in Seoul. From that time I taught with a very clear idea: I think not that I am the only one who can teach but that I do it on behalf of others. Following Yong-seong Sunim's awakening movement, Kwang-deok Sunim's Paramita movement and Seong-cheol Sunim's teachings, I started my Buddhism movement with the people around me.
   Watching the world with ever-open eyes, I am going to carry it out with a sense of mission.
   Busan Anguk Zen Center opening ceremony is on November 6th in Busan. Four years after purchasing the land, it has now been constructed. It consists of three four-story buildings. It is designed according to the angle which is made when a thread falls down in a gravity-free state. In this way we feel the balance of energy inside and outside. There are one more centers in New York, America.

Editor's note: SooBool Sunim was due to leave for America the next day, but he spent quite a long time with us. We really appreciate him and the Ankook Zen Center committee members' time and dedication. While we were with him, we could feel his compassion and the power of his way of teaching Buddhism. It was a very good time for us to realize how important it is to be guided by a good, knowledgeable teacher.

*This article first appeared in the November 2005 Clear Mind.